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<h3>

Chris Lamb pushed to branch master

at <a href="https://salsa.debian.org/reproducible-builds/reproducible-website">Reproducible Builds / reproducible-website</a>

</h3>

<h4>

Commits:

</h4>

<ul>

<li>

<strong><a href="https://salsa.debian.org/reproducible-builds/reproducible-website/-/commit/81f1a171cda8a74b6c7ed3d2b5cc1842719b96b5">81f1a171</a></strong>

<div>

<span>by Chris Lamb</span>

<i>at 2022-05-13T12:34:25-07:00</i>

</div>

<pre class="commit-message" style="white-space: pre-wrap; margin: 0;">Add initial draft for post with janneke.

</pre>

</li>

</ul>

<h4>6 changed files:</h4>

<ul>

<li class="file-stats">

<a href="#b3c588f5bc737f1678e934fc14e88d6be0f4024b">

<span class="new-file">

+

_posts/2022-05-13-jan-nieuwenhuizen-on-bootrappable-builds-gnu-mes-and-gnu-guix.md

</span>

</a>

</li>

<li class="file-stats">

<a href="#48015aa18b8bb79db68f7501f2bef3c9cf4db6b8">

<span class="new-file">

+

images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/gnumes.png

</span>

</a>

</li>

<li class="file-stats">

<a href="#83ab4024a3feb49da62bf75f08551e0f14d86e76">

<span class="new-file">

+

images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/guix.png

</span>

</a>

</li>

<li class="file-stats">

<a href="#508820f80fbca04ec4b34885edb3f7eefa1a0c19">

<span class="new-file">

+

images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/janneke.jpeg

</span>

</a>

</li>

<li class="file-stats">

<a href="#12b58fccdf74e6b634771ecaf087fdb12739f516">

<span class="new-file">

+

images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/log4j.png

</span>

</a>

</li>

<li class="file-stats">

<a href="#5d19020245acbd31e020af92c825ab91ab18cca7">

<span class="new-file">

+

images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/trustingtrust.jpg

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</a>

</li>

</ul>

<h4>Changes:</h4>

<li id="b3c588f5bc737f1678e934fc14e88d6be0f4024b">

<a href="https://salsa.debian.org/reproducible-builds/reproducible-website/-/commit/81f1a171cda8a74b6c7ed3d2b5cc1842719b96b5#b3c588f5bc737f1678e934fc14e88d6be0f4024b"><strong>_posts/2022-05-13-jan-nieuwenhuizen-on-bootrappable-builds-gnu-mes-and-gnu-guix.md</strong></a>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="1" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

1

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC1" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nn" style="color: #555;">---</span></span>

</pre></td>

</tr>

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2

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC2" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="na" style="color: #008080;">layout</span><span class="pi">:</span> <span class="s" style="color: #d14;">post</span></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="3" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

3

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC3" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="na" style="color: #008080;">title</span><span class="pi">:</span> <span class="s2" style="color: #d14;">"</span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">Supporter</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">spotlight:</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">Jan</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">Nieuwenhuizen</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">on</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">Bootstrappable</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">Builds,</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">GNU</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">Mes</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">and</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">GNU</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;"> </span><span class="s" style="color: #d14;">Guix"</span></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="4" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

4

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC4" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="na" style="color: #008080;">date</span><span class="pi">:</span> <span class="s" style="color: #d14;">2022-05-13 10:00:00</span></span>

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5

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC5" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="na" style="color: #008080;">categories</span><span class="pi">:</span> <span class="s" style="color: #d14;">org</span></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="6" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

6

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC6" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="na" style="color: #008080;">draft</span><span class="pi">:</span> <span class="no" style="color: #008080;">true</span></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="7" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

7

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC7" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nn" style="color: #555;">---</span></span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="8" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

8

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC8" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="9" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

9

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC9" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"><big></span>The Reproducible Builds project relies on <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">several projects, supporters and sponsors</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/who/"</span> | relative_url }}) for financial support, but they are also valued as ambassadors who spread the word about our project and the work that we do.<span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"></big></span></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="10" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

10

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC10" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="11" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

11

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC11" class="line" lang="markdown">This is the fourth instalment in a series featuring the projects, companies and individuals who support the Reproducible Builds project. If you are a supporter of the Reproducible Builds project (of whatever size) and would like to be featured here, please let get in touch with us at <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">contact@reproducible-builds.org</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">mailto:contact@reproducible-builds.org</span><span class="p">)</span>.</span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="12" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

12

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC12" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="13" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC13" class="line" lang="markdown">We started this series by<span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">featuring the Civil Infrastructure Platform</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/news/2020/10/21/supporter-spotlight-cip-project/"</span> | relative_url }}) project and followed this up with a <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">post about the Ford Foundation</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/news/2021/04/06/supporter-spotlight-ford-foundation/"</span> | relative_url }}) as well as a <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">recent one about ARDC</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/news/2022/04/14/supporter-spotlight-ardc/"</span> | relative_url }}) and with the <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Google Open Source Security Team (GOSST)</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://security.googleblog.com/</span><span class="p">)</span>. Today, however, we will be talking with <span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Jan Nieuwenhuizen**</span> on <span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Bootstrappable Builds, GNU Mes and GNU Guix**</span>.</span>

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14

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC14" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC15" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"><br></span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC16" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="17" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC17" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris Lamb: Hi Jan, thanks for taking the time to talk with us today. First, could you briefly tell me about yourself?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC18" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="19" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC19" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">![</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/janneke.jpeg?#right"</span> | relative_url }})](https://janneke.lilypond.org/)</span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="20" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC20" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="21" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC21" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: Thanks for the chat; it's been a while! Well, I've always been trying to find something new and interesting that is just asking to be created but is mostly being overlooked. That's how I came to work on <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU Guix</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://guix.gnu.org/</span><span class="p">)</span> and create <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU Mes</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/</span><span class="p">)</span> to address the bootstrapping problem that we have in free software. It's also why I have been working on releasing <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Dezyne</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://dezyne.org</span><span class="p">)</span>, a programming language and set of tools to specify and formally verify concurrent software systems as free software.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC22" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="23" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC23" class="line" lang="markdown">Briefly summarised, compilers are often written in the language they are compiling. This creates a chicken-and-egg problem which leads users and distributors to rely on opaque, pre-built binaries of those compilers that they use to build newer versions of the compiler. To gain trust in our computing platforms, we need to be able to tell how each part was produced from source, and opaque binaries are a threat to user security and user freedom since they are not auditable. The goal of bootstrappability (and the <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">bootstrappable.org</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://bootstrappable.org/</span><span class="p">)</span> project in particular) is to minimize the amount of these "bootstrap" binaries.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC24" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="25" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC25" class="line" lang="markdown">Anyway, after studying Physics at Eindhoven University of Technology (TU/e), I worked for <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">digicash.com</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigiCash</span><span class="p">)</span>, a startup trying to create a digital and anonymous payment system -- sadly, however, a traditional account-based system won. Separate to this, as there was no software (either free or proprietary) to automatically create beautiful music notation, together with Han-Wen Nienhuys, I created <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU LilyPond</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://lilypond.org/</span><span class="p">)</span>. Ten years ago, I took the initiative to <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">co-found a democratic school</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://doe040.nl</span><span class="p">)</span> based on <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">sociocracy</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociocracy</span><span class="p">)</span> in Eindhoven: And last Christmas, I finally went vegan, after being mostly vegetarian for about 20 years.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC26" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC27" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"><br></span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC28" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="29" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC29" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: For those who have not heard of it before, what is GNU Guix? What are the key differences between Guix and other Linux distributions?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC30" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC31" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">![</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/guix.png?#right"</span> | relative_url }})](https://guix.gnu.org)</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC32" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="33" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC33" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: GNU Guix is both a package manager and a full-fledged GNU/Linux distribution. In both forms, it provides state-of-the-art package management features such as transactional upgrades and package roll-backs, hermetical-sealed build environments, unprivileged package management as well as per-user profiles. One obvious difference is that Guix forgoes the usual <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Filesystem Hierarchy Standard</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard</span><span class="p">)</span> <span class="p">(</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">ie.</span> <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`/usr`</span>, <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`/lib`</span>, etc.), but there are other significant differences too, such as Guix being scriptable using <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Guile/Scheme</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/</span><span class="p">)</span>, as well as Guix's dedication and focus on free software.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC34" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC35" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"><br></span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC36" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="37" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC37" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: How does GNU Guix relate to [GNU Mes](https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/)? Or, rather, what problem is Mes attempting to solve?**</span></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="38" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC38" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="39" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC39" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: GNU Mes was created to address the security concerns that arise from bootstrapping an operating system such as Guix. Even if this process entirely involves free software (i.e. the source code is, at least, available), this commonly uses large and unauditable binary blobs.</span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="40" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC40" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="41" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC41" class="line" lang="markdown">Mes is a Scheme interpreter written in a simple subset of C and a C compiler written in Scheme, and it comes with a small, bootstrappable C library. Twice, the Mes bootstrap has halved the size of opaque binaries that were needed to bootstrap GNU Guix. These reductions were achieved by first replacing <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU Binutils</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.gnu.org/software/binutils/</span><span class="p">)</span>, <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU GCC</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://gcc.gnu.org/</span><span class="p">)</span> and the <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU C Library</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/</span><span class="p">)</span> with Mes, and then replacing Unix utilities such as <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`awk`</span>, <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`bash`</span>, <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`coreutils`</span>, <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`grep`</span> <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`sed`</span>, etc., by Gash and Gash-Utils. The final goal of Mes is to help create a full-source bootstrap for any interested UNIX-like operating system.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC42" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC43" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"><br></span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC44" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="45" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC45" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: What is the current status of Mes?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC46" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="47" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC47" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">![</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/gnumes.png?#right"</span> | relative_url }})](https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/)</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC48" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="49" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC49" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: Mes supports all that is needed from '<span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">R5RS</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/</span><span class="p">)</span>' and <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU Guile</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/</span><span class="p">)</span> to run MesCC with Nyacc, the C parser written for Guile, for 32-bit x86 and ARM. The next step for Mes would be more compatible with Guile, e.g., have <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`guile-module`</span> support and support running Gash and Gash Utils.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC51" class="line" lang="markdown">In working to create a full-source bootstrap, I have disregarded the kernel and Guix build system for now, but otherwise, all packages should be built from source, and obviously, no binary blobs should go in. We still need a Guile binary to execute some scripts, and it will take at least another one to two years to remove that binary. I'm using the 80/20 approach, cutting corners initially to get something working and useful early.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC52" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC53" class="line" lang="markdown">Another metric would be how many architectures we have. We are quite a way with ARM, tinycc now works, but there are still problems with GCC and Glibc. RISC-V is coming, too, which could be another metric. Someone has looked into picking up NixOS this summer. "How many distros do anything about reproducibility or bootstrappability?" The bootstrappability community is so small that we don't 'need' metrics, sadly. The number of bytes of binary seed is a nice metric, but running the whole thing on a full-fledged Linux system is tough to put into a metric. Also it is worth noting that I'm developing on a modern Intel machine (ie. a platform with a <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">management engine</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine</span><span class="p">)</span>), that's another key component that doesn't have metrics.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC54" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC56" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC57" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: From your perspective as a Mes/Guix user and developer, what does 'reproducibility' mean to you? Are there any related projects?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC58" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="59" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC59" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: From my perspective, I'm more into the problem of bootstrapping, and reproducibility is a prerequisite for bootstrappability. Reproducibility clearly takes a lot of effort to achieve, however. It's relatively easy to install some Linux distribution and be happy, but if you look at communities that really care about security, they are investing in reproducibility and other ways of improving the security of their supply chain. Projects I believe are complementary to Guix and Mes include <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">NixOS</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://nixos.org/</span><span class="p">)</span>, <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Debian</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://debian.org/</span><span class="p">)</span> and, on the hardware side, the <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">RISC-V</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC-V</span><span class="p">)</span> platform shares many of our core principles and goals.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC60" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC61" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"><br></span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC62" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="63" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC63" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: Well, what are these principles and goals?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC64" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC65" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: Reproducibility and bootstrappability often feel like the "next step" in the frontier of free software. If you have all the sources and you can't reproduce a binary, that just doesn't "feel right" anymore. We should start to desire (and demand) transparent, elegant and auditable software stacks. To a certain extent, that's always been a low-level intent since the beginning of free software, but something clearly got lost along the way.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC66" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC67" class="line" lang="markdown">On the other hand, if you look at the <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">NPM</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.npmjs.com/</span><span class="p">)</span> or <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Rust</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.rust-lang.org/</span><span class="p">)</span> ecosystems, we see a world where people directly install binaries. As they are not as supportive of copyleft as the rest of the free software community, you can see that movement and people in our area are doing more as a response to that so that what we have continues to remain free, and to prevent us from falling asleep and waking up in a couple of years and see, for example, Rust in the Linux kernel and (more importantly) we require big binary blobs to use our systems. It's an excellent time to advance right now, so we should get a foothold in and ensure we don't lose any more.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC70" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="71" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC71" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: What would be your ultimate reproducibility goal? And what would the key steps or milestones be to reach that?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC72" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC73" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">![</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/log4j.png?#right"</span> | relative_url }})](https://logging.apache.org/log4j/)</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC74" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="75" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC75" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: The "ultimate" goal would be to have a system built with open hardware, with all software on it fully bootstrapped from its source. This bootstrap path should be easy to replicate and straightforward to inspect and audit. All fully reproducible, of course! In essence, we would have solved the supply chain security problem.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC76" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="77" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC77" class="line" lang="markdown">Our biggest challenge is ignorance. There is much unawareness about the importance of what we are doing. As it is rather technical and doesn't really affect everyday computer use, that is not surprising. This unawareness can be a great force driving us in the opposite direction. Think of Rust being allowed in the Linux kernel, or Python being required to build a recent <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU C library (glibc)</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/</span><span class="p">)</span>. Also, the fact that companies like Google/Apple still want to play "us" vs "them", not willing to to support GPL software. Not ready yet to truly support user freedom.</span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="79" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC79" class="line" lang="markdown">Take the infamous <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">log4j bug</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log4Shell</span><span class="p">)</span> — everyone is using "open source" these days, but nobody wants to take responsibility and help develop or nurture the community. Not "ecosystem", as that's how it's being approached right now: live and let live/die: see what happens without taking any responsibility. We are growing and we are strong and we can do a lot, but if we have to work against those powers, it can become problematic. So, let's spread our great message and get more people involved!</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC82" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="83" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC83" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: What would be your biggest win?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC84" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="85" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC85" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: From a technical point of view the full-source bootstrap is our biggest win. A talk by Carl Dong at the 2019 <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Breaking Bitcoin</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://breaking-bitcoin.com/</span><span class="p">)</span> conference stated that connecting <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Jeremiah Orian's Stage0 project</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0</span><span class="p">)</span> to Mes would be the holy grail of bootstrapping, and we just managed to achieve that. In other words, starting from <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`hex0`</span>, 357-byte binary, we can now build the entire Guix system. This past year we made not so much visible progress as the funding was, unfortunately, not there. The Stage 0 project has advanced in RISC-V. A month ago, however, I secured <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">NLnet</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://nlnet.nl/</span><span class="p">)</span> funding for another year (with two possible extensions), and thanks to NLnet now also Ekaitz Zarraga and Timothy Sample will work on GNU Mes and the Guix bootstrap, and possibly on the RISC-V port. The bootstrappable community has grown a lot from two people it was six years ago: there are currently over 100 people in the <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`#bootstrappable`</span> IRC channel. That's possibly an even more important win!</span>

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</pre></td>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC87" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="nt" style="color: #000080;"><br></span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC88" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="89" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC89" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: How realistic is a 100% bootstrappable toolchain? And from someone who has been working in this area for a while, is "solving [Trusting Trust](https://archive.org/details/reflections-on-trusting-trust))" actually feasible in reality?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC90" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC91" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">![</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/images/news/supporter-spotlight-janneke/trustingtrust.jpg?#right"</span> | relative_url }})](https://archive.org/details/reflections-on-trusting-trust)</span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="92" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC92" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="93" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC93" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: Two answers: Yes and no, it really depends on your definition. One great thing is that the whole <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Stage0 project</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0</span><span class="p">)</span> can also run on the Knight virtual machine, a hardware platform that was designed, I think, in the 1970s. I believe we can and must do better than we are doing today, and that there's a lot of value in it.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC94" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="95" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC95" class="line" lang="markdown">The core issue is not the trust; we can probably all trust each other. On the other hand, we don't want to trust each other or even ourselves. I am not, personally, going to inspect my RISC-V laptop, and other people create the hardware and do probably not want to inspect the software. The answer comes back to being conscientious and doing what is right. Inserting GCC as a binary blob is not right. I think we can do better, and that's what I'd like to do. The security angle is interesting, but I don't like the paranoid part of that; I like the beauty of what we are creating together and stepwise improving on that.</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC98" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="99" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC99" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: Thanks for taking the time to talk to us today. If someone wanted to get in touch or learn more about GNU Guix or Mes, where might someone go?**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC100" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="101" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC101" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: Sure! First, check out:</span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC102" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="103" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC103" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">*</span> <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU Mes</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://gnu.org/s/mes</span><span class="p">)</span></span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="104" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC104" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">*</span> The <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Bootstrappable.org</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://bootstrappable.org</span><span class="p">)</span> project (Also on <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`irc.libera.chat`</span> in the <span class="sb" style="color: #d14;">`#bootstrappable`</span> channel)</span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="105" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC105" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">*</span> Our latest talk on GNU Mes from <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">FOSDEM '21</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://archive.fosdem.org/2021/</span><span class="p">)</span> is <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">available online too</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://archive.fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/gnumes</span><span class="p">)</span></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="106" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC106" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">*</span> <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">GNU Guix</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://guix.gnu.org</span><span class="p">)</span></span>

</pre></td>

</tr>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

</td>

<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="107" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

107

</td>

<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC107" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">*</span> Various <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">blog posts about reproducible builds and bootstrapping in GNU Guix</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/tags/bootstrapping</span><span class="p">)</span></span>

</pre></td>

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</td>

<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="108" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

108

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC108" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">*</span> <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">*Issue:55227: Full-Source Bootstrap patch set*</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">https://issues.guix.gnu.org/55227</span><span class="p">)</span></span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="109" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

109

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC109" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">*</span> <span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">Funding by NLnet</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">hhttps://nlnet.nl/project/GNUMes-ARM_RISC-V</span><span class="p">)</span></span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC110" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC112" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="113" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC113" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="gs" style="font-weight: 600;">**Chris: Thanks for taking the time to talk to us today.**</span></span>

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC114" class="line" lang="markdown"></span>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="115" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC115" class="line" lang="markdown">Jan: No problem. :)</span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="117" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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</pre></td>

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="119" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC119" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">---</span></span>

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</pre></td>

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</pre></td>

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</pre></td>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="123" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC123" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="err" style="color: #a61717; background-color: #e3d2d2;">*</span>For more information about the Reproducible Builds project, please see our website at</span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="124" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC124" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">reproducible-builds.org</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">{{</span> <span class="nn" style="color: #555;">"/"</span> | relative_url }}). If you are interested in</span>

</pre></td>

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<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="125" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC125" class="line" lang="markdown">ensuring the ongoing security of the software that underpins our civilisation</span>

</pre></td>

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126

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<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC126" class="line" lang="markdown">and wish to sponsor the Reproducible Builds project, please reach out to the</span>

</pre></td>

</tr>

<tr class="line_holder new" style="line-height: 1.6;">

<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

</td>

<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="127" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

127

</td>

<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC127" class="line" lang="markdown">project by emailing</span>

</pre></td>

</tr>

<tr class="line_holder new" style="line-height: 1.6;">

<td class="old_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="0" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

</td>

<td class="new_line diff-line-num new" data-linenumber="128" style="width: 35px; color: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-right-width: 1px; border-right-color: #c7f0d2; border-right-style: solid; padding: 0 5px;" align="right" bgcolor="#ddfbe6">

128

</td>

<td class="line_content new" style="padding-left: 0.5em; padding-right: 0.5em;" bgcolor="#ecfdf0"><pre style="margin: 0;">+<span id="LC128" class="line" lang="markdown"><span class="p">[</span><span class="nv" style="color: #008080;">contact@reproducible-builds.org</span><span class="p">](</span><span class="sx" style="color: #d14;">mailto:contact@reproducible-builds.org</span><span class="p">)</span>.<span class="err" style="color: #a61717; background-color: #e3d2d2;">*</span></span></pre></td>

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